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okay so here we go here's a good one let

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me finish this couple sentences and then

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you can

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respond because we're agreeing that you

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know ideally it should be

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treated obviously you can choose to live

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with it and struggle with it

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um lgbt activists

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would like you to believe that

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transgender should be embraced

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and thus the proper treatment is

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assisting the person in their transition

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to the opposite sex or what they call in

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a somewhat orwelli manner gender

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affirming

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care incredibly they denounce

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any care that may help a person identify

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with their biological sex

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well this is because this has come this

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has gone

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um i guess if you will too far

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uh you know again i i have never

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struggled

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with someone who's whose

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birth assigned gender is reinforced by

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some of the things you mentioned whether

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it's

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toys or or play

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or whatever but where it goes too far

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is when you try to get a person who's

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obviously expressed feelings of gender

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dysphoria

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and you try to treat that or reverse the

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processes

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that they've made towards transition

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you reverse that by with uh with uh

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what they call reparative therapy which

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is basically

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you know brainwashing or or trying to

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convince the person that they actually

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aren't transgender

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so you mentioned reparative therapy um

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we've interviewed some of those folks

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and

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that is something that you do not

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subscribe to

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no i think it's a i think it's a really

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um it really gives them

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it really gives the wrong message i mean

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it really is uh

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it in fact it's you know it's been shown

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to be you know

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psychologically devastating for many

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people

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well we'll get into that in in a second

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because um

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and i would love to see a debate between

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you and them by the way

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uh sometime all right well i i i would

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win that one

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they accept that challenge it means that

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you're you're up for it

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yeah well i don't i don't come up with

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corny numbers and i just look at the

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person and say

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you know it's just being a humanist or

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not you know you want to be

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you want to be you you need to be a

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human being first and foremost and uh if

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you're a liberal caring

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if you have a libertarian vein in your

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body you've got it you know you can't

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you just

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gotta let people be who they are yeah

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well i think what they would explain is

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that first of all the only people

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they're

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treating are people that have come to

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them they don't do the thing where the

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parent drags the kid by the ear and

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throws them into the camp for three

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weeks and they don't do the pray away

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the gay

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uh et cetera it's all voluntary

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and um it gets to well

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let me keep going with my my little

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speech here because

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we we get so what i what i say is why

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not treat

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a disorder you're going to disagree with

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the term disorder

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but it still needs to be but we agree

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that needs to be treated so let's just

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say

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[Music]

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so why not treat the diagnosis or

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dysphoria by trying to minimize

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or eliminate it we do that with all

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other

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diagnoses let's put it

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this way such as bipolar schizophrenia

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depression anxiety obsessive-compulsive

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you're calling it a psychological shame

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on you for that that's just such a

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such a nasty thing to say that's that's

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the old dsm the diagno

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that's the psychological diagnostic and

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statistical manual that is used to

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define

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uh gender dysphoria as being a

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psychological disorder

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and it's the same argument that was used

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to call

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being gay a psychological disorder

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well same thing and only recently

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was was this now dr now this has been

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dropped from the dsm

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and and no longer does the world health

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organization

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consider uh gender dysphoria to be a

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disorder

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or a psychological diet but i would

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argue that's all

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designed to reduce the stigma

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which in my opinion there should not be

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a stigma for it

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at all just as there wouldn't be a

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stigma for

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any of the things i just mentioned but

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you can't change the science simply to

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reduce

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stigma so the question is the science if

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you want to talk about the science the

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science is that

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every other measure of biology is

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represented by diversity

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and what we have done in our society is

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we've taken an

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artificial stance where we have doubled

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down

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on this notion of having good and evil

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black and white and male and female and

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we've made it a simple

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like a litmus test you want a litmus

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test for what's male and what's female

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and therefore never the two shall cross

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and all of the zones

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all of that region in between uh is

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is uh is uh uh is verboten and

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and not not to be not to be negotiated

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well and the fact is the fact is is that

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in biologically

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the i the notion of gender identity is

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represented by diversity

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and there is no person on the planet or

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very few anyway

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other than maybe tom brady and giselle

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bunchen who are truly

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polar males and females people who are

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who are 10 on a gender spectrum or one

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on a gender spectrum

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that there are most of us lie somewhere

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in between

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in regards to our gender identity and

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that is the biological fact

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yeah but what we're talking about

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primarily is when there is significant

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dysphoria to the point where it requires

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some form of treatment and you've got a

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lot of parents putting their children on

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puberty blockers you have a lot of them

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ultimately deciding to do sex

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reassignment surgery

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so there's treatments going on there

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for this um for

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i guess what you would consider the

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extreme amounts of dysphoria you're

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saying that hey there's a spectrum

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everyone has some level of dysphoria

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let's say or at least a good percentage

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of the population have some level of

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dysphoria but

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some of it becomes the sun such an

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extent that it's impacting their

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day-to-day life to the point where

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they're seeking treatment

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yes well we've you know we've also uh as

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a society

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uh unfairly given

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people only two boxes that they can kind

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of live in

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and it's it is possible that in time

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that maybe

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if there was more acceptance of people

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living

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not necessarily at one or the other

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extreme that maybe there would be fewer

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surgeries and a few

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and a lesser desire for hormones

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but right now we are we we have a we

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have a binary system

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i mean there is an emerging group of

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people who

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seek to live non-binary and they're not

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necessarily seeking hormones or

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surgery they're living somewhere in

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between

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but if someone has a xy

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chromosome which means that they are

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male correct no it doesn't i just told

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you the examples

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is that a large number of i was just

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making sure that

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that i got it right that x y is male and

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x is female because like it's

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not sometimes it's not it's okay not

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always okay

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not always if you have a penis

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then okay i'll say that okay let's just

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start with that let's say if you have a

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penis because

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drop that you got to drop that

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chromosomal thing because there's too

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many exceptions to it

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so yeah well let's just say

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hypothetically you're you're x y and

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you've got a penis and

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testicles okay and you're a

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five-year-old

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but but you're identifying as a female

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okay

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what the the boy is expressing to his

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parents why do you keep calling me a boy

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i'm not a boy i'm a girl

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i want to wear girls clothes i want to

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hang up so

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how could that be anything other than

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psychological

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if he has if he has a penis and and

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testicles and he's xy

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but he's saying i identify as female

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where else would that come from but his

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brain once again

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once again gender identity trumps

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uh trump's genitalia so

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gender identity always trumps genitalia

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okay so i'm with i mean

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that there's a distinction between

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gender identity and

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so so what you've got is you've now got

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a boy who's gender identifying

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as a as a girl even though he has a

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penis and testicles and he's

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xy so the question is what to do

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as if you're a parent in that situation

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and number one number two

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i say how could it be anything other

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than

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psychological and be in his brain if

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he's xy

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and has a penis and testicle so i don't

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understand why you get worked up when i

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suggest

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that it's something psychological i

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don't know why it has to be in the brain

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because it's not psychological it's it's

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biological it's what they think about

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but where is it if it's not in the brain

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okay well you know again it's not just

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in the brain because

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uh you know it could be it it's a it's a

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component

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it's a it's a biological makeup of what

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that child is

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which is a combination of anatomy

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genetics

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uh hormones uh uh

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imprinting uh uh

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fetal imprinting but nothing to do with

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psychological

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that

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is part of the makeup but it isn't a

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purely psychological problem

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that's all i'm trying to tell you it's

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not appear so boiling it down to a

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purely psychological problem

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is not only it's pejorative it's it's

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it's inflammatory and it's it's not

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accurate

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yeah well i don't know why it's so

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pejorative and so inflammatory i don't

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think that it should be but that's kind

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of the crux of my argument is that for

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some reason because

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if it's psychological that means it's

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it's malleable and it's

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and it's amenable to change that's what

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you're that's the argument that's the

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natural conclusion by what you're

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by stating that but it does it does

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change and people say all the time how

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they change in their fluid and they go

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from one side to the other so

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trans community seems to be open to the

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idea that it can be fluid throughout

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your lifetime

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but now you're suggesting that oh no

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it's not malleable so

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which is it is it malleable or not

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doesn't matter the malleability isn't

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the issue the melody you're trying to

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make the malleability

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make it a psychological issue well i'm

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saying

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at least in part it's psychological are

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you willing to acknowledge at least

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what i said that's what i said it's you

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know the the who you are

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and how gender identity is established

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is a is a myriad you know very complex

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formula okay

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so emerges before the age of six and

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that's the important point

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i and and based on those people i spoke

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to i totally agree with that that it it

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it's at a very young

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age so if you're willing to acknowledge

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that psychology plays

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some role in it what role does it

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play and what what would make

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a boy at six years old four years old

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five years old

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from a psychological perspective be more

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inclined to identify female

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well this is why this is why generations

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of guilt has been heaped upon parents

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because

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they're you know you have a child who's

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who's very slight who's very feminine

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appearing

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whose uh uh spermatic chords are very

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short

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probably you know who runs lower levels

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of

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let's say

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and uh and uh her brain said

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feel she feels that she's she's female

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not male

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how do you go to that person and say oh

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no no no you you really you're really a

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boy you just need a macho up you need to

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tough it up you need to build body build

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and

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we need to get you you know work on your

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brain to make you

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the john wayne you were meant to be well

357
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it's horseshit it's it's just it's just

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folly it's again it's trying to it's

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trying to

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you know it's it's it's the notion that

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you know every ch

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every boy child is has the potential to

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be

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either a potential uh either a john a a

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tom brady or a or a killer

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i mean this is all militarism that sort

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of that that fuels this

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this notion that we need to have our

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boys are potential soldiers

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it's just simply not true well

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but we're starting from the premise that

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gender dysphoria is something that we

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would

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prefer to prevent if possible and

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ultimately i wouldn't say prefer to

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prevent it again you're making a you're

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making a judgment on it

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that that aspect you know it's it's

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inner

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this isn't a new thing you know this

381
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goes back to the the pope

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the popes the ancient times uh

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literature mythology art history

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they all attempted to explain what were

385
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then intersex conditions

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but they were just an extension all all

387
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intersex conditions are genital just

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diversity and all transgender is is is

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brain diversity